Bella Ramsey Is the Hero We Need

At nineteen years old, Bella Ramsey has already earned recognition for her portrayals of dynamic characters who embody a spectrum of bold femininity. The British actor first rose to prominence at the age of only twelve with her scene-stealing role as the ferocious Lyanna Mormont in HBO's Game of Thrones before appearing in the series His Dark Materials and Becoming Elizabeth, and as the lead in The Worst Witch, among other projects. Most recently, Ramsey was seen as the titular character in Lena Dunham's film adaptation of the young adult novel Catherine Called Birdy as a headstrong teenager who refuses to conform to the traditional requirements of a medieval lady. A burgeoning singer-songwriter as well, Ramsey also contributed a moving original song to the soundtrack.

Ramsey is now starring in the blockbuster HBO adaptation of the popular video game The Last of Us from co-creators Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann as Ellie, a fan favorite known for her wit, bravery, and vulnerability in the face of a post-apocalyptic society plagued with infected creatures and desperate survivors. In an exclusive conversation for Cero Magazine, Ramsey and Mazin share a glimpse into their delightful and endearing friendship that developed during production for The Last of Us as she discusses her experience working on Catherine Called Birdy, how she preps for shoot days (or not), and the relief that comes with having an anxiety buddy to lean on. —Mackenzie Hamilton

BELLA RAMSEY Nice to meet you, Craig Mazin.

CRAIG MAZIN Oh hello, Bella Ramsey. Nice to meet you. [Laughs] I'm going to ask you a series of questions. I want you to answer them honestly and truthfully. [Laughs] Because people probably are wondering, "Hey, what are these two like together?" the first question I'm going to ask you I'm not going to speak out loud. It's not even a question. I'm just going to tell you something telepathically and I think you will understand.

BR [Looks concentrated and laughs]

CM Got it?

BR Yeah, I got it.

CM And can you please respond telepathically?

BR Yeah, you ready?

CM Yes, okay. The first question is done and I agree completely. [Laughs] Okay, here's my first question. I watched Birdy, which I thought was delightful—and that's the best possible word for a movie like that. When you first arrived to us on The Last of Us, your hair was super long. We have a video of you cutting off your own huge, long ponytail. Now I realize all that hair was for Birdy. A, did you grow it for Birdy specifically and B, more importantly, tell me about acting with all that hair because it actually was part of that character.

BR Actually, I wasn't specifically growing it out for Birdy. I've been growing it since Game of Thrones, since I was eleven. Every show that I've gone onto, they've said, "Don't cut your hair, don't cut your hair, don't cut your hair," so it's just grown and grown and grown and grown. Then Birdy was delayed by a year because of Covid so there was no option of cutting my hair whatsoever. So I was keeping it long for Birdy's sake. In terms of acting—living with it is hard enough. You have to be careful when you go for a pee to make sure it's out of the way.

CM Oh, because you could literally pee on your own hair.

BR Yeah, or poop on it.

CM As a bald person, that is so far from my understanding. [Laughs] You have blown my mind that when your hair is that long you theoretically could pee on it.

BR Yeah, you could. I managed to avoid it most of the time. [Laughs] Acting with it was just a natural thing. It's something to fiddle with, so when it's there you just generally tend to play with it. That was even true between takes and stuff. Ever since I was young, people have observed that when I get tired, I play with it even more. If I've got braids, I'll start twisting them around my face. It's just something tactile to do.

CM My next question is about your wardrobe. I look at these things as somebody that makes stuff, so I know that hair and wardrobe are actually huge things to figure out. You've got this very long, flowy hair and you're in this flowy dress, and I don't think until Birdy I've ever seen you in a dress. Now, I know your preference would be not to wear a dress, because again, I literally have never seen you in one.

BR And you never will.

CM [Laughs] How was that in terms of moving your body around in front of the camera in a dress and all that hair? How did you wrap your mind around all that?

BR Julian [Day], the costume designer, and Shaida, his wife and partner, very much wanted my input in terms of dresses and stuff and wanted me to feel comfortable. Because if I'm not comfortable in what I'm wearing, you're going to be able to tell. I'm not that good of an actor. The flowy stuff I actually really liked, it felt very free and loose. I wouldn't wear it as myself but when I was Birdy—I always mesh with whoever I'm playing, sort of by accident, so it felt fine. It wasn't restrictive. I didn't have to think about crossing my legs or sitting nicely because they were long dresses. They're extremely comfy. I just came off a show with corsets [Becoming Elizabeth]. So this was a welcome change. There were certain dresses though—the suitor dress, or the green one when she's pretending to be a lady—those ones I was not a fan of them on my body at all but it actually worked because neither was Birdy. She hated having to dress up in these things so it all worked out really well. I just accepted the discomfort and used it.

CM Interesting. I guess it is pretty lucky for you that then the next character that you're playing is Ellie in our show, who basically dresses the way you dress. You play this girl who is very strong-willed, very funny—she is a proto-feminist because there was no feminism in the Middle Ages, but there was Birdy, who's being very feminist in her own way. Then you're playing Ellie, who is tough and funny. It's not even post-feminist; she's just Ellie. The thought of inequality is not even in her mind, she's absolutely equal to anyone. My question: Is this kind of character something that you think of as in your wheelhouse? I'm also thinking back to Game of Thrones, where you were playing, surprise, this very young girl who is very funny, didn't take any crap from anybody, and once again, sitting outside the normal boundaries of what we would call femininity or a female character. Do you think of these things as connected? Do you think of them as expressions of yourself? Is it just something that you think you're really good at doing? How does it integrate with you as Bella?

BR Well, I guess that they are an expression of myself in a way. They are the characters that I find the most natural to play and the easiest. Lyanna Mormont was slightly different in that it was my first-ever thing. Well, it wasn't different actually, she was sort of natural to play as well. It didn't ever feel forced. I guess these sorts of characters are the most similar to me, but it's not something that I've done intentionally. It's not like the script comes through and I'm like, "Oh, another one of these characters." I don't see it like that. I just read it and then it feels like a part of me, like my actual skin. It's like in a video game where you wear different skins, right? That's how it feels with these types of characters. When I did the audition for you, Ellie was under my skin already. She was one of my skins. Same with Birdy. It's just about letting those be at the forefront, which happens organically when you're shooting anyway, for me. Yeah, these tough, funny people, they're just fun, aren't they?

CM I mean, you definitely have fun. [Laughs] I'm interested in this notion of skins that you wear. For your audition for Ellie, I think we had two scenes. We had many, many, many, many, many young women do an audition and they're all reading the same scene. You didn't have the whole script, you just had those two scenes. Is there something specific that makes you go, "Oh okay, now I know how to make my skin?"

BR No, it's nothing specific, it's just a feeling. It's just there. You read the sides, even not having the context of the rest of the script, it's just a voice of the character which felt like it was from within me. That's the difference, it feels like it's coming from within you rather than it being something that you're pulling from external sources and putting on yourself. It's coming from inside instead of on top, if that makes sense. There was nothing specific, just the words. It's just a feeling, I don't know how else to describe it.

CM I think you've done a very good job of describing how it feels for us on the other end of that process because we are looking for somebody that is generating it out of themselves, even though it came from outside of themselves. We want it to feel like it's coming from within themselves. That really is kind of the thing, and it's hard to do. Okay, so I have another question for you. I think about our time together and when I'm watching our show, I always stop and go, "Oh, that was our first day with Bella." Then on another episode at a certain point, I go, "That was the last day. That was our last day with everybody and Bella," and I remember it and I know how it feels. What was the first day on Birdy and what did it feel like? What did you do on the last day and what did it feel like?

BR I'm really excited to answer this. My first day was with Archie Renaux, who plays [Edward the Monk, Birdy's brother], and it felt quite scary. I think I had thought about it too much. It didn't feel as natural and organic and from-within-myself as it had done previously so it scared me a bit.

CM You got scared that you wouldn't be able to get to where you needed to be.

BR Yeah, I was scared that it was always going to be something that felt more external than from within because that is an uncomfortable feeling for me. I had just come off Becoming Elizabeth as well, which was very much a big ensemble cast, we just had a laugh all the time. This was such a different environment. The whole crew was different and the whole vibe on set was different. Not in a bad way, it's just totally different and I think that change spooked me a little bit. So the first day, it wasn't great, to be honest. I didn't feel confident about the rest of the shoot, I didn't feel confident in myself and Birdy. It took me a few days actually. By the second or third day, I found my feet a little bit and it was very much from within. In that first day, you have to find a way for it to be from within otherwise it feels like the day can't go on for you personally. You know what did it was when I started jousting with Jesus. That was the moment that I felt it, I think as soon as I had something to do with my hands, a joust with our crucified savior. [Laughs] When I had something to do with my hands, that was when it became easier.

CM The fact that you found something to do with your hands and that made you more comfortable is also something that the people who are making the movie start to learn about you. Basically, there's this conversation that happens without words on the first day where you start to learn each other's needs. I'm thinking about our first day together.

BR Oh yeah, it was so bad.

CM But it wasn't, it was wonderful for me. [Laughs] My experience on the first day was, "Oh my god, we're going to be fine. This is going to be great." There were things to figure out together, there were all these little bits and bobs. Obviously on day one, I’m going to say twelve things to you and on day 193, I'm going to say one thing to you, if any, but maybe you have to feel this way on the first day. Is that possible?

BR I think maybe that's the truth. You have to feel slightly uncomfortable and slightly panicked in order to have a successful shoot. [Laughs]

CM Tell me about what the last day on Birdy was like.

BR The last day was the scene in the bath, which was slightly weird because I was in this modesty suit, they call it. I was just there in a dressing gown, which felt very strange because after all of the beautiful costumes that I'd worn, then suddenly to just be in a spandex bodysuit with a dressing gown felt slightly odd. [Laughs] It was a very emotional day. None of us really wanted it and none of us could believe that we'd actually done it. The moment that we wrapped, I had just come out of the bath and it was boiling hot, so I was bright red. In all the pictures, I look like a beetroot. They played Nelly Furtado's "I'm Like a Bird" on the speaker system, Lena did a speech and wrapped everybody, and that was that. Then it was suddenly the end. Actually no, that's a lie, it wasn't the end. Then I had to quickly get changed and go and do some temp voiceover work in a random cinema studio somewhere, so that was it.

CM That sounds like the proper end to something. This is not a romantic business. We go through these big, long productions and then it ends with you in some half-abandoned theater talking into a microphone with three guys who are eating their lunch. That's pretty much how that goes. [Laughs] Okay, so I'm watching the movie and every now and again—because I know your face so well because I looked at it for a year and then I've been looking at it every day since that year as we edit. You are younger in Birdy, obviously, but I wouldn't say obviously younger, just subtly younger. I'm curious, for you, do you look at Birdy or any of the things you do and see the progression of your own growth? Is that something you track through these projects that you've done?

BR Like physical growth or acting growth?

CM Both. You're growing up on film—almost no one does, yet you are, so you are having a unique experience. I'm curious if you mark your own passage of time or growth by reviewing what's happened before.

BR Well, I don't look at Birdy and think I look younger. To me, I look exactly the same now as I did in Birdy. However, when I look back at Game of Thrones now, I'm like, "Oh, I was quite little." The one that gets me the most is if I ever watch The Worst Witch again—for whatever reason, if it comes on or if my mum is sitting watching it, which she does sometimes—I can barely watch it now. It's interesting because at the time when it came out, I wasn't bothered by my performance. I was like, "Oh, this is fine." Now when I watch it, I'm like, "This is shocking."

CM Shocking in what way?

BR As in terrible, as in I wish I were never born. [Laughs]

CM [Laughs] Meanwhile, your mom insists on watching it over and over.

BR Exactly. [Laughs] I think that is the main one acting growth-wise. I don't like that. I can't think of a better phrase, though. It was interesting because at the time when it came out, it was fine. Now, years later, it's really not fine for me to watch. As for other projects, I don't really see it. I think The Worst Witch is the standout one to me where I've developed massively in the way that I look and in terms of acting. I actually had never thought about that, that I'm growing up on film. You've now put that in my head and now we're going to be thinking about it for a long time.

CM Great, that's what we do—inception. Recently, you were asked about The Last of Us, which I think is going to continue to happen quite a bit, and you mentioned that you hadn't played the game.

BR Yeah, I didn't know whether I was allowed to say that or not.

CM You could say whatever you want, you are a free person. Some people were like, "Uh oh, she didn't play the game, how could she understand the character?" You also mentioned absolutely accurately that we, meaning me and Neil, said, "Oh good, don't play it," and the reason we said that is because one of us made it and the other one played it, so we know the game inside out. We also know our show inside out and what we certainly don't want is for our actors to do impressions of characters that were there before. I think all humans to an extent are sponges, we can't help but absorb what we see. Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson, who played Joel and Ellie in the game, didn't watch anybody perform anything when they did the characters, nor did we think that you and Pedro [Pascal] should do that. I think we made the exact right decision. But it's different when you're talking about a book because there is no audiovisual aspect. Did you read the book Birdy going in and, if so, was it a good idea ultimately that you read it? Did it infect you? Did it change the way you approach things? Did it cause trouble?

BR I did read the book, and it was fine. The voice of the book was just the same as the script. What did mess with me, actually, is there are so many young people who have made their own versions of Birdy on YouTube. They've made Birdy films and I've watched all of them and they messed with me a little. Some of them are great. But the book didn't affect me that much. It just felt very similar to the script, so that was never really a thing. They just released a version of the book with a still from the film on the front of it, which is fun. I don't know how I'd feel if I went back to reading it now. To be honest, I'd probably be able to recite it because a lot of it is very similar.

CM You are very good at memorizing your lines, you're extraordinarily good. I'm glad you brought this up because I think that if I asked you to, you could probably do all of your dialogue from Birdy without pausing. Obviously, you and I do your dialogue from Game of Thrones all the time because we both enjoy that.

BR And I do my Last of Us words in my head all the time.

CM I've done a small bit of acting myself, very small, but I enjoyed it. Rob McElhenney, who runs Mythic Quest, the show in which I've acted a bit, likes to torment me about the fact that I have a hard time memorizing lines. I had a hard time memorizing my lines in the episode where I had written it. They're my own lines, and I had a hard time memorizing them. What do you do? I don't know how you do it. Is there a method or a trick?

BR No. Well, there are many methods and tricks. I didn't know any of them and I don't use any of them. I think it links back to what we were saying earlier, where a character comes from within you. If you feel them, you know what they're going to say. That's why I can trust myself to turn up on the day, get the sides in the trailer, have a little read, and then we go and do a line run on set and then we rehearse it, and then it's there. That's it.

CM You're killing me. [Laughs] Hold on, so it’s not like the night before you're like, flip, flip, read, read, memorize, memorize. You don't look at it at all?

BR If it's big chunks, then I will.

CM Okay, I'm so jealous. That's amazing, that's honestly amazing. When you're making a show, there are so many people you have to rely on. You have to rely on almost everybody, and you can kind of break everybody out into degrees of confidence: "I am not at all confident relying on this person." "I'm confident relying on this person." "This person, I don't think about it because it's a lock, it will never be a problem." Most people, you can rely on them but occasionally they're going to be wobbly. I got really lucky on The Last of Us because I had you and Pedro and the two of you were just one hundred percent prepared and right there every day. Now, as it turns out, the preparation was easy and I take away all credit. You receive no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

BR [Laughs] Thanks, now I feel like a failure and I feel like I need to sit down and really have a good think about my life and my process and I need to evaluate some things and start working harder. It's funny because actually this is going to change your mind. If I had done a lot of prep, if I'd read it the night before, read it days in advance, really drilled it into my head, it would have been terrible.

CM Believe me, I'm goofing. Honestly, change nothing. [Laughs] What you're doing works so well. It's really just that I'm jealous of your superpower. You have this remarkable ability and I'm jealous because I don't have it at all.

BR Talking about this just reminded me of something. I did try and do prep once for a film I did called Resistance. I sat down with the script the night before and I went through every single line thinking about what my character Elsbeth was thinking, what was going on in her head, what was behind the line, every single thing. It was the worst day on set I've ever done in my life because it just felt so conceited and false and unnatural and inorganic. That was the day that I was like, "I'm never doing this again." When directors say, "Obviously you're going to go and do your prep, and then we'll come back and we'll do it together," I just have to nod and be like, "Yep, going to do my prep," and then proceed to do zero and hope for the best and wing it.

CM When you're like, "Yep, I'm going to go do my prep now," and you're alone, what do you do?

BR I don't know. Sit in silence and contemplate all my decisions.

CM [Laughs] That's awesome, just sort of sit in silence. I'm picturing you going back to your trailer and closing the doors, sitting down, and just [exhales]. Okay, let's talk about anxiety and then we're going to finish off with something fun. I have suffered from anxiety my whole life. I don't think I'm violating any big secret by saying that you have anxiety problems from time to time.

BR Oh, you have violated no secret whatsoever.

CM Throughout a year of making the show, there were times when I was very anxious and you knew and you would come over and give me a hug and you would tell me, "Everything will be fucking okay." You put that on a mug for me, which is something I now say to myself all the time. So you've taught me that, which is great—and it would help. There were times when you were anxious and I could tell and I would come over to you and I would give you a hug and I would say, "Everything will be fucking okay," and it would help. There's no magic there as much as just—somebody knows. They don't just know because they're seeing something happen, they know because it happens to them too. My question is, have you had somebody like that on these other TV shows, these other movies? When you don't have that person, what do you do? I'm sort of addicted to it now, now that I've had an anxiety buddy. I don't know how to do things anymore without an anxiety buddy basically.

BR Me too. I actually don't know what I would do without you now if I didn't have someone to text, "EWBFO." I honestly don't know what I would do. My mum has been that person for me throughout, she's been with me on every show that I've done. I've never had a specific person that I've met on set. I've never had a Craig Mazin before, put it that way.

CM I've never had a Bella, so I get it.

BR So we are equal. It is quite lonely. You're feeling all these things and you just want someone to look at you and be like, "I know what you're feeling," but they don't because they don't know you well enough or they don't feel the same things as you. It can be lonely, and you're just internally panicking or dwelling while going about your day and being nice to everybody amongst six or seven different costume changes. This is where the word 'action' is my lifesaver. The second song I ever wrote was about this very moment. I wrote it on The Worst Witch, when I didn't particularly have that anxiety buddy. So 'action' is the escape. 'Action' is when everything that I'm feeling suddenly goes away for like two minutes. For example, I can be shivering with cold uncontrollably, and then you say, "Action," and it just stops. If it can do that for physical things, it can do it for mental things too. So 'action' is my lifesaver when there isn't an anxiety buddy to look at you and be like, "I know what's going on." That's why I really lean into the character without even meaning to and become somebody else. That's the relief.

CM Because that character isn't feeling anxiety the way that you're feeling anxiety, you get to take a break. I would presume that it would be harder to be in your position because I can be anxious in my chair and make myself into a tiny, sad, little Jewish ball but you have to perform. You have to be in front of the camera, you have to do these things so you can't just curl up into a ball. But then, on the other hand, you get to leave your anxious body and mind behind and be another person for, let's say, forty-five seconds at a time. That's interesting, that never occurred to me that you had that freedom there.

BR Yeah. This has been a long time now since we wrapped on Last of Us four or five months ago. It's been a long time for me not to have a character that I'm having that sort of experience with, so that's why I'm still very much holding on to Ellie and The Last of Us. I'm sort of obsessed with it because it was such a great time. It was hard for all of us, it was such a great time and Ellie is still very much that character for me. Sometimes I wake up and I'm talking American like Ellie, calling everyone motherfucking assholes in my head. [Laughs] I think that's my way when I'm not working. It's just holding on to Ellie until the next thing comes along because it's just weird not to have that other person to be.

CM Well, I can try and write you some scenes for each day and just text the word 'action' then you could have your moments.

BR It's a flawed solution, but I like your thinking. We can work on it.

CM Alright, we'll workshop it. Okay, I want to ask you a question about a song you wrote. You wrote a song for Birdy. Talk about this.

BR I wrote a song for Birdy, you are correct. I was secretly hoping that Lena would ask me to write a song, to sing a song for the soundtrack—preferably write because the writing of songs is something that I really enjoy, not so much performing. She initially asked me if I'd sing a song for the soundtrack and I was like, "Yes, that would be great," and then secretly hoping that she'd say 'write' a few weeks later. I didn't say anything, and then she did. She said, "Oh wait, how about you write one?" I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds great." It was very low-key and chill and I just picked up my guitar and created the base layer of the song, then I workshopped it with Lena's husband Luis who did the soundtrack and turned it into the song that's in the film today. There is a specific bit in it, which is "fly up into the sky, don't let them hurt you, don't let them crush who you are." That's the first song I ever wrote when I was ten, after a sleepover where I did this stupid thing. I don't know why I said this, I had an iPad and I said, "Oh, you can go on anything, just don't go on that app," which is so stupid in hindsight, because of course they're going to go into it.

CM Wait, you were saying, "You can go on anything on the iPad, just not that one app"? What was that one app?

BR It was like a virtual diary, you could create a storybook of your life. So I had that on there and the thing I really, really, really didn't want them to see was that I had little recordings of me singing little bits of songs. Of course, they played them and they turned the volume up really loud and I was like, "Stop it!" and I hid under the bed and they tried to pull me out. It was quite traumatic, they tried to pull me out while they were playing my singing. I ended up locking myself in the bathroom and waiting for my mum to come and pick me up. Then on the way home in the car, I was quite sad, and then I got back and I wrote a rap on either side of that little chorus. Frozen had just come out and I heard "Let It Go" and I was like, this is my song. So that was my rap. Then the "fly up into the sky" bit was the first melody that I ever wrote and it felt very fitting that then that should be part of the Birdy song. It feels very nice and full circle.

CM Well I hope that those children, now young women, are appropriately chastened by this story.

BR I don't even think they'd remember it, to be honest. That's why I don't feel bad talking about it, because they're not going to remember.

CM Yeah, they won't remember the casual trauma that they inflicted, right? [Laughs] I always say that about people on the internet that say mean things and then you read it and you're like, "Ugh," and then they've forgotten that they wrote that like three seconds later. It's gone, it's out of their mind like it didn't even happen but then you sit with it for days. Okay, last question. Let's say there is a Birdy 2. Let's just briefly workshop it because I have an idea of what I would want to see. Do you want me to pitch it to you?

BR Yeah, I want you to pitch it to me. I want to hear your idea first.

CM Okay, so Morwenna, your maid or minder—as it turns out, her name is not really Morwenna. She came to your village many years ago in hiding because she used to be married to an abusive guy, and she killed him and then she had to escape because that guy had a brother. The brother has found out where she is, and he snatches her up and he takes her away. You find out because that lovely man who wears the cloak that's in love with her, Golden Tiger, he's bereft but he doesn't know what to do. He's broken up inside and he is almost numb. So you have to go full Liam Neeson and go track down those motherfuckers who took Morwenna and kill everybody along the way until you get her back. But you still have to be Birdy so you have to be really lovely and funny.

BR It's just starting to sound like The Last of Us.

CM Maybe what I'm really starting to talk about is the second season of The Last of Us, which we will hopefully get.

BR I'm into it. You know how we talked about the fact that we just want to do The Last of Us forever? Well, this is my way of doing that while still doing Birdy so yeah, I'm into it. I really like the fact that Morwenna and Golden Tiger would get their moment to shine. I would be up for that. I would like to produce it as well.

CM Of course, I think that's reasonable. I think Lena would be cool with what we're discussing.

BR Yeah, I think so too. I might WhatsApp her after this and just let her know our plans and then we can just go ahead.

CM Yeah, we want to be respectful about it, but we do feel like we have something that we could do. We need to put the hair back somehow. Did you save the hair?

BR Yeah, my hair is braided in a Ziploc bag in a box beneath my bed.

CM All we have to do, hear me out, is glue it back on.

BR Yes, that's the smartest thing you've ever said.

CM [Laughs]

BR Glue it back on. [Laughs]

CM [Laughs] That is the smartest thing I've ever said. Oh no. [Laughs]

BR Have I just ruined our whole relationship?

CM No, it just got better. It just can't help but get better. I could talk to you all day, and there have been quite a few days where I have talked to you all day.

BR Yeah, they are actually some of my favorite days.

CM They are some of my favorite days too. I miss you.

BR I miss you more.

The Last of Us continues on Sundays on HBO. Catherine Called Birdy is now streaming on Amazon Prime Video. Read this story and many more in print by ordering our fifth issue here.

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